You seem to gloss over the fact that the rules were changed shortly after he accepted that ban to exclude from Hall Of Fame membership all those on the permanently banned list. That was not a rule when he agreed to the ban. Maker sure you state all the facts, not just the ones that support your position. It's called responsible journalism.

Wow, this writer sure is a sardonic historian. Talk about selective memory. Who is this joker anyway? Baseball has more problems from previous generations with not nearly the sancitons that Rose has endured. Giamatti did not make a deal with the sport, he acted as if he were the sport and subsequant commissioners have done the same. Let the proper process of inclusion in the hall of fame, done by the electorate decide. Get the unathletic commissioners out of it. And idiot writers imposing thoughtless, regurgetated oratory, just to hear themselves bs, should be silenced. Their baseless crap has been said a million times, now let the protocol of election be reinstated. Well I guess my sarcasm has been stated too, but You see, I am a fan, I don't like Pete Rose, but I beleive fairness has its place, and the commissioners of baseball are wholly overpaid jockless, pseudo-intellectual condescending people that really don't care about what the fan wants, or they would never have tacitly approved steroid use and then say, "I had nothing to do with that." I hope steroids keeps Bud Selig on the sidelines of the hall too.

Rose should be in the Hall, period. Enough said.

The Hall of Fame is for players who were exceptional. Pete Rose does belong in the Hall of Fame. I'm sick of players breaking records because of steroid use, they don't belong in the Hall of Fame.

OK, Pete's out, but his "crime" doesn't hurt our youth the way substance abuse does. Quit slapping people on the wrist for steroid use. Kick Manny, Alex, Barry, Roger, Mark and anyone else who's confessed or been proven guily out of baseball, out of the record books, and out of the Hall of Fame for life.

Perhaps some honor and some true role models for youth can be restored to baseball. Protect the kids coming up from harmful drug abuse. Show some backbone! Be firm! Be harsh! If you don't you'll lose more fans, for good this time!

Someone who commits murder gets 20 years to life-this certainly is not at the same level so why or who is punishing the man so harshly and on what basis are they determining the length of Roses punishment?

Simply put, 20 years is indeed long enough.

Pete deserves to be in.

Craig,
I think Pete Rose has done his time in a cell-less solitary confinement. To punish Mr. Hustle to life-time ban is simple revenge, perhaps a lot of hatred for Mr. Hustle and that is not justice.

I hate the "there are far greater offenders" argument. Rose is a scumbag liar who needs to remain ineligible, at least, until he dies. Shoeless Joe Jackson is not in the Hall for the same reason, and rightfully so. His antics nearly destroyed baseball in the early part of the century. Players who have used steroids to achieve a performance advantage should also be ineligible, period. Many got super rich from it, don't frost that cake with undeserved glory.

Rose and the Office of the Commissioner also agreed that Rose could apply for reinstatement after at least a year. Rose has done this but the Office of the Commissioner hasn't ruled on the application for over a decade. The Commissioner can deny Rose's application but to fail to rule on it seems to violate the spirit of the parties' agreement in my opinion.

Someone who commits murder gets 20 years to life-this certainly is not at the same level so why or who is punishing the man so harshly and on what basis are they determining the length of Roses punishment?

Give Rose his ticket into the HOF. I,too, am a lowly fan whose opinion will not be articulated as well as the writers who generate enough wind to push a canoe across the Atlantic, but the man was a JOY to watch. No one played with the amount of intensity over a period time the way he did. I absolutely agree that I would not want him teaching my daughter's Sunday School class 'cause right and wrong are taught by me. That holds true for about 80% of the people playing professional sports.

Selah

It's just baseball. Let him in the Hall Of Fame. I see that the NFL hasn't kicked OJ out of their Hall Of Fame, so big-whoop-dee-doo!!

Pete Rose has nobody but himself to blame. Sorry, Pete, you crybaby, but you agreed to a lifetime ban, now man up and take your punishment.

I had the pleasure of watching Pete Rose play ball live. I hated him, because I am a Dodger fan, however I have never seen ANYONE play the game with more enthusiams... thus "Charlie Hustle!" Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame, as well as anyone who took steroids prior to them being illegal. Baseball lagged way too long in getting steroids banned, and can not turn the clock back. Yes, there are several players who obviously took "performance enhancing drugs," HOWEVER they were not illegal in baseball!!! The "Home Run Derby" feelings of past years were hailed by "baseball" to get folks to come back to stadiums, and now they try to act like they had no idea these behemoth sluggers came by their strengh naturally. I also think that Barry Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame, and that is without an asterik because he never tested positive after the substances were illegal in baseball. Let us not put the cart before the horse, now that they are illegal, let us deal with those who test positive, and not try to rewrite books that were in another age.

You are very selective in your indignation. Hall of Famers Enos Slaughter and Stan Musial (to name two) would routinely spkie Jackie Robinson because they were biggits and he was black. I do not think anyone argue that Ross was a better player than either by a wide margin, perhaps the best all around hitter and fielder that ever played. But because Kenesaw Mountain Landis decided that betting was the worst of all sins, Rose will never be in the Hall of Fame. That simply makes a mockery of the whole institution.

First of all, we put people in the hall of fame like Darryl Strawberry. And just HOW many times was he busted for cocaine??? I believe everyone should be given a second chance. Pete Rose = Baseball. LET THE MAN IN! My prediction is that once Pete has passed on, they will put him in the hall of fame. Isn't that usually how this kind of thing works??? I'm an Eagles fan, yet how many of them were caught with marijuana, look at Andy Reid's kids for God's sake! How about AMERICA'S TEAM...The Cowboys!!! Come on people, wake up!!!! How many others did what Pete did?? The only difference is, THEY DIDN'T GET CAUGHT!!!!!

Come on every body! Pete Rose is a boy scout now compared to the steriod bums we have in baseball today. He should be evaluated on his play on the field not peoples's position on gambling. So he lied! Big deal!

I agree. Pete had to be dragged kicking & screaming to finally fess up (and it was only because he sensed a buck could be made). He willfully & repeatedly violated the only rule that is literally posted over every clubhouse door.

He also made mobsters rich, because when he didn't bet on the team, they knew a baseball expert, with all sorts of inside knowledge, didn't think his team was going to win that night.

shoeless joe jackson didn't gamble on whether or not a team would win. he was involved with throwing the world series for profit. there is no information i know of that suggests pete rose threw games to make money. I'm not a big baseball fan, but putting the two in the same catagorey makes about as much sense as lumping someone who commits self defense with Jack the ripper.

No. Twenty years is not enough. Pete Rose had the benefit of time, millions of dollars, the best attorneys money could secure, social contacts that are with the most intelligent and articulate in society and he chose of his own volition, his own free will to accept a lifetime ban. Pete Rose knowingly broke the law and rules. These wackadoodle Hall of Famers, baseball people, fans, etc who are asking for a simple discussion on the reinstatement are just plain mental cripples and freakin idiots. Lifetime is what "Pete the Cheat" wanted, asked for and received. I grew up watching the Big Red Machine. When I stole second base in my mind I was going to give 100%, I was going to do it like Charlie Hustle. Yes I wanted to be like him, play like him, emulate him, Be him. I loved what he did. I loved what he brought to baseball, living, being. A person with numbers such as pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame. Pete Rose does not.

other atheles kill,rob,rape,gamble,fight steal,etc.and they are hardly punished at all.get over pete rose.put him in the hall of fame where he belongs.

Pete Rose is the Greatest Player in the history of MLB. Manny and A Rod should never be mentioned in the same article.Like many have said, " give me 9 players like Pete and i'll win 162 games".

Grant: Major League Baseball does not make those rules. The Baseball Hall of Fame is an independent body composed of an independent board. They could make a rule tomorrow that no New York Yankees will ever be allowed in, and baseball couldn't technically do anything about it. This is not a case of the baseball changing the rules on Rose. There were never any guarantees on him getting into the Hall of Fame, ban or not.

Agree Rose should be in the Hall. He put butts in the seats and made a ton of money for baseball. Selig should be fired and banned permanently.

Baseball management has selective morality. For the first half of the twentieth century (1901-2000)Baseball owners and commissioners, and the sactimonious newspaper press believed it was right to discrimate and the basis of a man's race. Nowhere is there an apology from any of those groups of people. Racial discrimination and slavery are condoned but gamling is not. Who allowed the sportswriters to vote for Hall of Fame applicants in major league baseball. Sportswriters are one rung down the social ethics list from used car salesmen. Only Hall of Famers with ten years of induction should be allowed to vote. All the negro league Hall of Famers should be inducted into the current Hall of
Fame. Pete Rose deserves to be in the Hall of fame, and should be inducted immediately, just as Roberto Clemente was. The biggest bozos in the mix are guys like Joe Morgan, indeed a great player, who greatly overrates his career. No one else deserves the right now that he is in.

Dsmith: read my reply to E. Lanter. The Baseball Hall of Fame is an independent body composed of an independent board. Giamatti didn't ban him from the Hall of Fame, nor could he have. The Hall of Fame simply decided that anyone banned from organized baseball -- which is what Giamatti did -- should be banned from their club as well. They didn't have to do that.

As for Giamatti's power: he was doing nothing different than any other Commissioner before him had done. Indeed, the entire office of the Commissioner was formed in the wake of the Black Sox scandal, after which Kennesaw Mountain Landis took it upon himself to . . .ban a bunch of guys for life for taking money from gamblers.

What Pete Rose agreed to was a ban with the opportunity to apply for reinstatement after a year. That is NOT a ban for life even if that was how it was worded in the agreement. He NEVER agreed to being banned from the Hall of Fame, that wasn't part of the deal or the rules at the time. What the commissioner's office did was change the rules by restructuring the eligibility for the Hall of Fame AFTER structuring the agreement with Pete Rose. This is an abuse of power that is unconscionable in it's magnitude and in my opinion was done as a direct result of Pete Rose's case. Had Pete Rose known what the commissioner's office was going to do regarding the Hall of Fame, I doubt that he'd have agreed to the deal that was basically forced down his throat at the time. What Pete Rose did was wrong, make no mistake about that. Banning him for life from baseball with the opportunity to apply for reinstatement is what the rule stated at the time and he knew about the rule and deliberately broke it. But give him his well-deserved place in the Hall of Fame for what he did on the field. THAT wasn't a rule when he broke it and shouldn't have ever been changed. For the commissioner's office to fail to rule on his case for over a decade is a second related abuse of power that tells me that the commissioner's office doesn't intend to rule on this case-EVER. That to me is too much power in one place and shouldn't be allowed. If it was in government it would be called a dictatorship.

Players and coaches that gamble on their sport or team underecuts the importance of real competition for the fans...otherwise MLB would be just like pro wrestling.

Pete Rose should not and hopefully will never get into Cooperstown...let him keep selling his soul and autograph which I wouldn't give two cents!!!

Darryl Strawberry is NOT in the Hall of Fame. But to get to my point, I say ban Pete from ever working in the MLB again, but make him eligible for the Hall. Then let the writers or the veterans committee decide.

Ya know how it's said there are signs on the clubhouse door reading "No Betting"? Well, it states a rule, but it doesn't say "or else you're outta here forever". OK, a rule was broken, but isn't the purpose of the rule to avoid throwing games: i.e. betting against your team? So if Derek Jeter bet Mike Lowell 50 cents on last night's game, they could both be banned for life? I'm saying, it should be more about intent than simply breaking a rule. Baseball has that rules that are commonly broken, but players aren't dealt with like Pete Rose. With all the "evidence" out there, I think the single most important factor is, did he bet on his team to win or lose.

This is the hall of great baseball players, not the hall of nice guys. Let Pete in, enough is enough.

Here it is straight from baseball's rules regarding induction to the HOF:

Rule Five (5) of the entrance requirements that say voters shall consider a player's integrity, sportsmanship and character.

Integrity: Pete lied about gambling. Check

Sportsmanship: Pete admitted gambling on baseball. Check.

Character: Pete lied, gambled on baseball, hung out with a seedy and criminal crowd. Check...Check and Check.

Case closed. There is no argument past this. He cheated the game out of it integrity too. The man had it all and tossed it away willingly and willfully. His accomplishments on the field were far out weighed by his actions off of it. And we only have his word that he ONLY bet on his team to win.

He is getting exactly what he deserves. Nothing more, nothing less.

Dave: baseball's rules on gambling aren't to "protect our younth." They're to protect the game which, before those rules were enacted, was at serious risk of turning into professional wrestling in terms of integrity. Games were routinely thrown and the public was becoming increasingly skeptical that what they were seeing was actual athletic competition. No such threat has come from steroids, though to their credit (and to the credit of the game) MLB has instituted rules to curb their use.

Finally, someone states the obvious! The eligiblity rule was changed more than a year after he was banned! the "Pete Rose Rule" was designed, unfairly, to keep him out of the hall. How bout just giving him credit for what he did BEFORE he was proven as a baseball bettor? He bet as a Manager, he got 4,256 hits as a player.

Dude, Daryl Strawberry is not in the Hall of Fame.

Phew! The so called writer must have spent more time watching sports than studying and learning honest and true journalism.
I'm a phillies fan and love Pete Rose as a player, has he served his sentence? I think so considering all of the most recent Convicted" and alleged criminals in all sports not just baseball.
There are a couple commissioners who feel they are god and jury who should be banned for life too.

Baseball Rule 21d, section 2:
"Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."

I see nothing there saying that the offender should be forgiven after 20 years, especially after lying about it for 15. The rule is crystal clear: You bet on a game you are involved in (win or lose), and you are gone FOREVER. Sorry, Pete. Much as I love the "I'd go through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" attitude, you committed baseball's one unforgiveable sin, and you will never get into the HOF without paying admission.

I've said this a couple of times already Olympia, but MLB does not dictate the rules to the Hall of Fame. The hall of fame has its own rules as it is an independent body and museum.

Pete is the number 2 guy after Shoeless Joe Jackson. When Shoeless Joe gets in then and after the same number of years has passed then Pete moves up to next in line. It's not because he wasn't a great it's because smart is not a word you can use for Pete.

The one thing sports must have is its integrity. Betting on baseball is a death sentence in the sport and should remain. Does anyone really believe that if Rose got in a position where he had to win a bet and had to have the money that he wouldn't bet against his team and make decisions to cost his team the game. Anyone who knows anything about this guy knows how self absorbed he is and how his only loyalty is too himself. To believe that he came completely clean in 2004 is like believeing that Bonds and Rofriguez should end up the home run champ because they earned it. Schmidt who was my favorite player growing up in Philly disappoints by putting his friendship with Rose above the integrity that needed in the game.

PERMANENT ban, not merely "lifetime". Rose drawing breath makes no difference.

That the Hall's policy couples its own eligibility with eligibility within any baseball major league is the Hall's concern. If the Hall wants to change its policy, it is free to do so. Rose's status regards the Hall is really very insignificant.

But Rose should never be reinstated to MLB unless, by some miraculous turn of events, he EARNS it. Marking time isn't nearly enough.

Finally, someone states the obvious! The eligiblity rule was changed more than a year after he was banned! the "Pete Rose Rule" was designed, unfairly, to keep him out of the hall. How bout just giving him credit for what he did BEFORE he was proven as a baseball bettor? He bet as a Manager, he got 4,256 hits as a player.

Pete Rose should be allowed back into baseball and if voted in the hall of fame,which is in its self a no brainer.We have todays stars using banned substances,gambling,raping,dog killing and various other pathetic behavoir being reinstated after short periods of punishment or receiving(such as baseball)a slap on the wrist.Bud Selig is such a hipocrit by even judging Pete Rose.This man stood by for years if not a decade knowing full well the abuse of steroids in baseball and turned a blind eye.He is condeming Pete Rose for life for lying??? Has he not only lied and continues to claim he knew nothing.Talk about lack of character.Pete has paid with time in prison,loss of employment and the sheer embarasment of tarnishing the game he loves and disapointing all his fans.I think it is time we send Bud Selig packing and make sure this man of poor character is,if anyone banned from the Hall.What a sad day for baseball if this man ever gets in.God wheres the Babe,Ted W,Mickey,Satchel,Ty and the boys to save my beloved game.

Pete should have strangled a few dogs, or run over a pedestrian.
I didn't care for him but this is something to behold.
Thie writer is a real piece of work.

so you're saying its fair to change the rules of admission AFTER he was banned? He should be in the hall for what he did on the field not off of it.

I would just like to point out how funny it is that a commenter has complained about Daryl Strawberry being allowed in the Hall of Fame.

People, wake up and realize that he belongs in the Hall for his accomplishments but not back in baseball because of his gambling. The Hall changed it eligiblity AFTER he was banned. Major League Baseball will not even let the Reds retire his number (with him there) or induct him in to the Reds HOF (with him there). Come on HOF, stop playing God to keep the deserving out...and one more thing....Bob Feller, you were a great player and American hero, now shut up and go away, we're all tired of you. You've tarnished your reputation by trying to make the Hall seem like Heaven. Just go away.

...but without the heavy lobbying of the commissioner's office at the time, both pubicly and reportedly behind the scenes too, I don't believe the rule would ever have been changed. The comments made publicly regarding Pete Rose by the commissioner at the time bordered on oppressive and certainly left no doubt in the minds of anyone who heard them what he EXPECTED the Hall to do. I think the Hall of Fame went along at the time in order to keep peace in the family, so to speak, and it took them a year to do it during which they were under constant pressure to do so by the commissioner's office in the press. It was still a power play by the commissioner's office even though he wasn't directly responsible for the rule change. His opinion and words carried a far greater weight than they should have. Pete Rose cheated after he played and betting as a manager didn't affect how he played or what he accomplished on the field as a player. For his accomplishments on the field he deserves to be in.

Matt: I agree completely! This is about Pete Rose and him only. Those prople who want to compare him to others in diffrent sports or other criminals. need to get it straight. He bet on games, he lied, and he admitted it. The rules apply to every player regardless of how they preformed on the field. Breaking rules, cheating lying are the same for all. Pete did what he did he accepted what the punishment was. Whjat the hell does he want now?

Cinti Mel....You're kidding right? You do know that the way players were inducted in the 20's was completely different than today right? You do know he was eligible for the hall all those years, right? Until the Pete Rose Rule was put in in 91 he could have gone in.

I was a Big Red Machine fan growing up in the 70s and Pete was my role model. I wanted to play like "Charlie Hustle" when I played baseball. It was one of the biggest let downs of my life when all of this transpired. As time went by I felt sorry for Pete until I heard him broadcasting a radio show from Vegas...Hello!?! His "coming clean" was inspired by greed. And to say he provides his income by signing autographs...BULL!!! I bought a Reds baseball to get an get an autograph from him at a Reds AA ballgame. I was five people away and he got up and walked out with another 50 people waiting. I still have that autographless baseball. I say let him rot in the Hall of Fame parking lot! Pete is one of the most arrogant people with whom I have crossed paths.

Actually, CintiMel...there WAS NO HALL OF FAME when Shoeless Joe was banned...please do some research!s

Gambling doesn't hurt youth? Guess again, it is one of the most destructive addictions anyone can have. Pete Rose was a great ballplayer, but he is also a vile, disgusting human being who broke the rules then consistently lied about it. To let him into the HOF would soil that institution.

I always understood the argument as being that even if he did only bet on his team to win, that's still a major problem because he might manage games he's bet on differently than games he didn't. Knowing he has thousands riding on a game tomorrow could affect how he manages the game that he didn't bet on today.

vile? disgusting? You put too much creedance in the ESPN Movie. the existance of gambling would not hurt youth if the existance of parenting skills were there. Stop muddying the waters! Soil the institution..too funny. Spitballers, womanizers and alcoholics are in it now...god knows a gambler that admitted it would bring the walls crashing down. Geesh.

This is simple. In our system of jurisprudence, innocent defendants do not cop pleas. I certainly agree that his performance on the field of play warrants induction to the Hall, and, for sure, there are several rogue individuals already enshrined. But the fact is that Pete agreed to the LIFETIME ban, the baseball equivalent of the death penalty. When he finally did own up to what everybody already knew, his contrition seemed rather hollow given that his "mea culpa" took 15 years, was announced during a nationally televised interview, and was timed to coincide with the release of his book.

Pete Rose should be eligible for the Hall, but only AFTER he serves his sentence. He should never be allowed to stand up behind the podium in Cooperstown to accept his induction, for that is hallowed ground. Once he is taking his "dirt nap," then, and only then, should he be eligible for induction. Oh... wait... one more condition... only after "Shoeless" Joe Jackson is reinstated, too, for he finished serving his sentence long ago.

Think of this as karma... for ruining Ray Fosse's career...

But why would he manage his team to lose ever? Any manager always makes the decisions he feels give him the best opportunity to win. A manager who doesn't, won't have a job for long.

the comments continue to amaze. Hallowed ground? The Hall? I love baseball and all but please... The rules infraction that he perpetuated was done AS A MANAGER AND NOT AS A PLAYER. Look at it this way...if he was a player and he as suspended, he could appeal the suspension. If he was a manager and got suspended (hello Dave Pallone), he couldnt appeal...different rules, no union). He broke all the records as a player and when he quit playing, he was in good standing. He went on to manage and broke Rule 21. Keep him out of baseball and the Hall as a manager, put him in the hall as a player.

NOT!

you are an idiot

I don't think Rose is a likable guy, even WITHOUT the gambling addiction. Still, the Hall is for the best players, not the best men. I just don't think it is reasonable to have the career hits leader (probably achieved clean) excluded from the Hall. As Stuart mentioned, there are surely alcoholics, drug addicts, spouse abusers, etc. in the Hall. There is room for a gambling moron who hit better than any of them.

Pete Rose could have committed murder and been forgiven in less time. MLB has lost a lot of credibility in recent years and in this case they've lost all of my respect. I grew up on baseball, but no longer watch MLB

Jim...Pete Rose called, your autograph is ready.

This leads to a debate on role models. There are players that don't want to be role models. Regardless of whether they want to or not they "are" role models. An ethics standard needs to be set. And for the record, players who used steroids should not be allowed into the Hall and should be excluded from the record books. Look what happened to Sammy Sosa's career after he quit taking them. All of the these issues revolve around one thing...GREED! What ever happened to "for the love of the game"? Is love of the game left to the fans who pay outrageous prices to see these overpaid athletes?

I'm glad this is just your opinion because from reading the above comments, you are seriously in the minority Mr. Calceterra. Rose made baseball fun, regardless of his statistics. He played hard and was fun to watch. He made millions for many people. Gambling is a disease (my opinion now) and Pete took a big bite. I puke at the notion of Bonds or Ramirez in the HOF while Rose pays for his bad choice "for life". Get Real!!! It was not a crime (see Steve Howe and his many cocaine pardons) and he has more than paid $$$$ for it. You probably won't be satisfied until Rose is lying dead somewhere. To Pete Rose: Thanks for all the awesome memories you gave my family in the many ballparks I had the pleasure to watch you in. You are/were one of a kind.

What I think is commical is how all these "so called" sports writer professionals and talk show hosts and experts like to forget one thing . . . WE THE FANS make these damn sports and without us they mean nothing, nothing at all. And the fans overwhelmingly support bringing pete into the hall of fame. Many of the greats were not great people, but we didnt pay to see them because they were good people did we. We dont pay millions of dollars to these guys to be good people, if they are great, if they aren't we still watch them. MJ had his gambling issues and we all just laughed and got over it . . . there is a racist card here I think is being played against pete . . . if he were a minority . . he would be in . . .

I met Pete Rose about 30 years ago. He was a pompous, arrogant a** then and, from what I can tell, hasn't changed at all. However, I will agree with those who state his case to let him into the HOF. His play deserves it. I would also suggest, as some have also stated, that he remain banned from any involvement in baseball. Seems to satisfy most all the arguments...

I agree, but I think there is more of a 'Cincinnati' problem than a racial one. A few years back, when Rose was still managing, Roberto Alomar spit in an umpires face during a game and got a 10 game suspension. The next year, Rose bumps Dave Pallone during an argument and gets 30 days in suspension. Alomar appeals and gets it reduced, Rose has no appeal rights. The whole Marge Schott derailment led to much of the anti-Cincinnati sentiment and Major League Baseball and the Hall (although they say they are completely independent of one another) won't get over it. Pete Rose, probably due in part to his brash, narcissitic ways, has kept him out as much as the fact that Selig doesnt want to be the commissioner that had to override Bart Giamatti and his protege Faye Vincent. The time has come to listen to public sentiment (by the way, if it weren't for fans, this discussion would be a moot point, we pay the bills). Put him on the ballot, for fans sake.

It is ridiculous to keep him out. The HOF is for accomplishments on the field, not moronic behavior off of it. No one will argue that what he did was wrong, but you can't deny what he did on the field and that is what this is all about, in my opinion. They should have instituted a rule back in the day that said if you had steroids in your system, you could not play. Imagine how many games would have been cancelled due to teams not having enough players. Now let me get this straight, gambling bans you for life, alcohol, drugs and other infractions are acceptable. Something wrong with this picture? LET HIM IN.

Matt: The clause you quote states that the betting has to be on a game in which he is to be part of. My understanding is that he did not bet on his teams games. If this is accurate, then he should not even have faced punishment. It seems interesting to me that baseball can now go back and punish players who were on that ill fated list that was never supposed to see the light of day and yet they will not go back and punish players of an earlier era that were openly discriminatory towards coloured people. The playing field in definitely not even. Lets' drop the whole mess and start fresh, with a set of rules that is standardized and enforcable.

He admitted betting on his own team, and according to the Dowd Report, he only betted on them to win.

I rememeber that part of the requirement of the HOF is integrity.
I guess Rafael will never be able to go in to the HOF as he pointed his finger at us during the senate hearings and stated " I never did steroids!" If you let in all those players that have lied about steroids use then you might as well let in Pete.

Mike..is that integrity clause DURING playing days or after? if you have integrity when you played and followed the rules, and did everything you needed to to reach HOF status THEN went south, should you be banned???

The "hall" is really quite irrelevant without Pete Rose in there. When the best player ever is not there, it's a sham.

With that logic, everyone who used steroids should be banned as well............AROD, MANNY, MCGWIRE, SOSA...ECT. All of these people cheated the game, its fans, and themselves. Youre going to ban someone who did nothing but bet on his team and let these other lowlife scum bags walk who have cheated the game by enhancing their performance, made multi millions by cheating the fans and who has to pay for it? We do. Not the owners, or the players, or the game itself. Its the fans who pay $40 parking, $6.00 beer.

One of the more ironic things is that they have a display of his things in the hall but wont let him in. That is hypocritical.

Pete Rose should be banned from MLB for life. Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. The problem is that the HOF and not MLB. As someone already pointed out: 1) the two are separate legal entities, 2) the HOF added the rule banning anyone banned from MLB AFTER Pete Rose was banned, before he became eligible for entry, and simply to keep him out. What would the HOF do if a current Hall of Famer was found to have bet on baseball during his playing time? If still involved in baseball, MLB would give the lifetime ban. But would the HOF remove the player? I doubt it. Mike Schmidt and all other current Hall of Famers should be putting the pressure on the HOF and not MLB. If Mike feels so strongly about Pete's admission, maybe he should ask that he be removed from the HOF in protest.

I agree that if Darryl Strawberry, Steve Howe, and Axel Rose are in the Hall of Fame, then Pete should be too.

This is a fantastic thread.

I believe HOF inductees should be individuals we can look up to, but realize they are not perfect. If Pete had been inducted into the HOF we wouldn't be talking about him now. In a twist of fate, he lost the respect, but gained the notoriety for 20+ years. How many other players from Pete's generation get the number of mentions he does? He wanted the spotlight and he got it. Liars, cheats, and criminals are difficult to hold up as role models and shouldn't be rewarded--regardless of whether we're talking about steroids, betting, or other serious crime. The outcome fits him.

Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame. Betting has nothing to do with playing baseball. And he should be able to even manage a team. He knows what he did and has paid a heavy price. Now its time to put that behind him and let him back in baseball.

If Pete Rose would have been inducted in the Hall of Fame we'd see him at events along side Hank Aaron and Bob Gibson. There would be a big "14" along side the retired numbers in Cincinnati and he would be in the Reds HOF for fans to enjoy.

The outcome doesnt fit the crime with the punishment set forth is changed when an agreement is signed. He signed in knowing full well that even thought he was banned for life, one thing would possibly happen and one thing was certain. First, he MAY BE ABLE to get a reconsideration after a year. And the certain thing was that he would be eligible for the hall of fame. The HOF changed that and that may have changed his stance on the lifetime ban.

Gee, funny now they didnt 'grandfather' him in like so many other of lifes occurances when the rules change after an agreement is reached.

I really like Pete Rose and believe he belongs in the HOF now, but I wouldnt let him in any position of power with a baseball team. Like putting an alcohlic in charge of a bar..

This is so childish. He paid the price. What else do you want? Allow him to receive the award he earned. Unlike Bonds who is the so called Homerun King yet cheated to get there. Rose did not cheat to achieve his baseball goals, he earned it. He disgraced the sport by gambling and paid the price for 20 years! The kids that you are worried about were not alive! They also cannot comprehend why it is not acceptable, so stop using kids as the excuse. It is almost as if someone's feelings were hurt and they are trying to get revenge. Get over it and let's move one!

If I am correct, I thought Giamatti was taking a trip to Italy by boat and the boat sank. Giamatti was too hard on Rose 10 years would have been enough and then Rose should have been back in baseball again. Barry Bonds and his steroids are back in baseball. And he took plenty in order to beat Mark McGuire's mark.

Huh?? Bart had a heart attack.

The way we ignore arrogant athletes today for their outlaw ways I feel 20yrs. is excessive by 20yrs. minus 2 months house arrest

Michael - Alomar spit in Hirshbeck's face in 1996. Not that it has anything to do with anything anyway...I just thought you should try to keep your irrelevent facts straight.

Glad I could help.

Offer Rose an opportunity to buy lottery chances to get into the HOF.
Have a drawing each month. However, I think a penalty for not winning this monthly lottery should carry a penalty for wasting our time. I would suggest one Toe removed each time he does not win. It is his choice to keep playing or just go to a GA meeting. Ray Fosse should be the host.

What should the "Hall of Fame" induction criteria be folks? Whether you played the game and didn't do anything that was offensive to the writers? Whether Rose bet on his own games or not, he never showed a penchant of quit in all of his years on the diamond. Now we as fans are supposed to abandon him after a 20 penalty? I know it was a Lifetime ban. He did not get an opportunity to agree with the ban. It's like a murder victim. The perpetrator may ask if you want to die or not, but they ultimately get the sentence imposed by the person with the control. Rose belongs in the Hall. Let him in!

Pete should be allowed in. Look at Michael Vic and other players that do prison time and are reinstated, I think Pete served his debt to us.

ok, thank you for correcting me

ok, thank you for correcting me

I wish I had time to write a response to all you idiots, but alas there is not time and most of you can't read at a high enough level for it to make any difference. Let's clear up a few things:

1) If you are tempted to play the "even rapists and murderers get out of jail card," remember that Rose was never put in jail for gambling on baseball (though he was for tax fraud). Going to jail is vastly different from not being allowed to work somewhere. Major League Baseball has never restricted his freedom to make a living anywhere outside of the context of Major League Baseball, which he agreed to in 1989. But just as someone who sells corporate secrets to a rival may get out of jail one day, it's highly unlikely that his original company will want to hire him back. Same situation here.

2) Baseball has had a rule against betting on baseball since 1920. Since 1920, the consequences of breaking that rule have been drilled into its players, coaches, managers, owners, trainers, groundskeepers, batboys, and beer vendors. Rose knew what he was doing and what the consequences of getting caught would be. He made his bed, and has constantly whined about how uncomfortable it is.

3) Rose's stunning lack of honesty and remorse undermine his case significantly. He seems to be a habitual liar, such that nothing he says today, about the nature of his bets or his conversations with Bart Giammatti, cannot be taken at face value.

4) As Craig has noted, his exclusion from the Hall of Fame is the Hall of Fame's decision, not Major League Baseball's. Baseball has no leverage over the HOF. While you might think that Bud Selig, Fay Vincent, and the MLB have had some kind of stick they can hold over the HOF's head, there's no evidence of it. Baseball is at least as beholden to the Hall of Fame (since the MLB isn't going to start a new museum now for itself to funnel players and memorabilia away from Cooperstown).

5) Please get your historical facts straight. Ken Cochran, no one has ever accused Stan Musial of deliberately spiking Jackie Robinson. Quite the opposite; players have raved about Stan's class and kindness to everyone, including his African-American and Latino teammates. VGREISS, Darryl Strawberry is not in the Hall of Fame. And Michael Seibert, Pete Rose quit managing in 1989. Robbie Alomar starting playing in 1988, and the "Spitting Incident" didn't happen until he was playing with the Orioles in 1996. There is no way your version of events is remotely possible.

6) Can we please separate the debate about steroids and the Hall of Fame from the issue of Pete Rose/gamblers and the Hall of Fame? They are two completely different situations, completely different arguments. As far as we know, Rose was acting alone in the game, taking actions that may have compromised the integrity of the game on the field. Steroid users (while morally and ethically wrong) were part of a culture of cheating in which they were universally trying to perform better. We have no such assurance with Rose, aside from his word, which as I've already pointed out, is crap. Have a nice day.

As you can tell, I have nothing but disdain for Pete Rose, and everything he has done since 1989 to stoke the fires of this debate. He is, by all accounts, a first-class jerk. His body of work as a player is astounding, and his achievements will not soon be forgotten, whether he gets into the Hall of Fame, is reinstated into the MLB, or not. But I do not think he has earned himself any leeway in the debate, nor has he tried to. Perhaps a few years out of the limelight and some good works will go a long way toward changing my mind. Pete needs to work on himself in order to change my mind.

I was born and raised in Cincinnati and grew up a Reds fan.

No one was a bigger supporter of Pete Rose!

Until I read the Dowd Report.

Now, I do NOT deny that Pete belongs in the Hall of Fame as a player. Being the all-time hits leader makes that fact obvious.

However, he CANNOT be allowed in while he is alive! He broke the ONE RULE that cannot be broken in baseball, in that he bet on baseball games while being actively involved in the game.

In the 20 years since his banishment, he has completely mismanaged his attempts at reconciliation. He has been arrogant beyond belief, and, when he finally DID come clean, he tried to make a buck doing it.

He has made his bed; now he must sleep in it.

I suspect that he wWILL eventually be enshrined in the Baseball Hall of Fame, probably the year AFTER he dies.

That would be true justice!

Who the heck really cares what he bet on? I don't! He was the man! I don't care how many dogs Vick was involved with! Let him play!!

It is about time you do-gooders start busting the testes of your government for letting old people choose between food or medicine! Or are you just so jealous that your sports skills weren't worth crap--or a jock took your girlfriend?

Pay your dues and it should be forgiven and forgotten--but thanks to the moral majority there is only paper forgiveness. Maybe all the black people are right--racism still exists and running rampant--glad it ain't in my neck of the woods!

Hank Aaron will always be the home run king

"You seem to gloss over the fact that the rules were changed shortly after he accepted that ban to exclude from Hall Of Fame membership all those on the permanently banned list."

No, that most certainly is *not* true. Why do you think Shoeless Joe Jackson never made it? I don't remember the details-it was years ago-but a minor effort was made to overturn the rule to allow those with permanent bans-ie, Rose-to be elected to the HOF. It failed. I would suggest you get out your history books before making wrongheaded accusations from now on.

The Rose problem is easy to slove,pwt him is without a
Ceremony,don,t even invite him up that day. Case closed!

JAB4

I agree with you Lorrie. These guys might stop taking steriods and betting on games if NO meant NO. None of them deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." Rose's playing record, ability and contributions to his teams is undeniable. His integrity, sportsmanship and character have been seriously questioned.

Pete Rose was an outstanding, exciting player. His on field play deserves enshrinement. Unfortunately he broke the rules. When questioned about it he lied. He spent 15 years lying. To allow him into the Hall is a slap in the face to baseball.

He was given a lifetime ban and he deserves a lifetime ban. He should be elected into the Hall of Fame posthumously.

it is my understanding that Shoeless Joe Jackson was not able to read and signed his ban because he was told to, not fully understanding what he was actually signing. it is also my understanding that he did not keep or spend the money he was given, he hid it under the mattress or somewhere, and only went along with the sub par way of playing because his teammates did.

i do not put him in the same catagory as Pete Rose, who apparently can read only select items such as odds forms but not "no betting" signs in clubhouses and kept any winnings and also knew exactly what he was signing when he was banned. and he did all of this on his own, with no peer pressure. i remember his play when i was younger and yes, he was an excellent player, but he purposly threw that away when he ignored the rules of the day

Pete Rose is and will always be a "Hall of Famer." His lifetime ban included the option for reinstatement for a reason. For God's sake, Pete should not be held hostage based on the new problem baseball has..."Steroids."

Question - can Pete Rose help baseball now in the Steroid area?

Answer - YES!

Question - can Pete Rose help to rid Sports as a whole of gambling?

Answer - YES!

Truth be known - baseball owners, players, and the Commissioner knew about the gambling!

Allow Pete Rose reinstatement now! Just don't let him manage a team!

Look,

Rose lied, and cheated. So did lots of guys who are in the Hall, and plenty that will be there later on. On the filed, he was a winner, and set many records. As a manager, he didn't live uip to his end of the deal. Let's put him in for his on-field record.

Pete suffered. Let him see his entry before he is gone.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Pete Rose the human being, who just seems an incredibly stupid and arrogant guy even after all these years-remember a year ago or so him telling dan patrick that not only did he bet on his own team, he bet on every team, every day? He wouldn't know the truth if it kissed him on the cheek and called him daddy. Bottom line, he did what he did knowing what the consequences might be. It's too bad that this is what he will be remembered for, whether he eventually makes the HOF or not.

Pete Rose broke the cardinal rule of baseball - Betting on the game. Then he lied about it for years!! He still has not paid his "debt to society"; which, is a lifetime ban. Once he dies, enshrinement into the Hall of Fame may be considered.

The point is not whether or not shoeless Joe belongs in the HOF. the point is that he, like Rose, had deserving stats and yet has never been enshrined. This policy didn't start with Rose, and, as much as some folks here would like to believe it, this is not a manifestation of baseball's personal grudge against Rose.

"So he lied! Big deal!"

Yes. It is a big deal.

Come on folks. Everyone knows that if Pete had went out and run over a 59 year old man and killed him, he would he'd be in the Hall of Fame already. No wait, thats the game of football. Silly me. Bad Pete, Bad Pete for betting. Change sports and you'd have been a shoe-in on first vote. Funny how sports in the good ole USA have different punishments for their respective players.

Kill a dog--18 months
Kill a man-- 24 days
Bet on a "game"--lifetime ban--Priceless

Does anyone else see the difference

Yes, Don, I do. Those other men went to jail for their crimes (as they should, probably for much longer than they did). Pete Rose never went to jail for betting on baseball. But what he did do, betting on games, compromised the integrity of the game and violated a rule he well knew the penalty for breaking. Seriously, this isn't a contest to see who we can be the most fair to. Just because Mike Vick and Donte Stallworth get off easy doesn't mean Rose should be treated with equal laxness. He knew what he was doing, and knew what the penalty for it would be. He really shouldn't complain now (not that that's ever stopped him) when he gets hit with a stiff punishment.

You're right. That's exactly what should happen. These guys didn't cheat to win. They cheat to get rich. When a shmuck like Canseco can have the career, he had, with little or no talent, where does that leave the game? It isn't steroids or cheating that ruined the game, it is greed. The owners are just as liable. We can spread the blame pretty evenly for everyone in the game today.

A strong commissioner maybe could prevent this from circling the drain. But we all know that won't happen. Only the people who now support the sport, as it stands today, are responsible for its demise. The money we spend keeps it going in this distorted direction.

I still pay attention to the scores and the standings, habit of over fifty years. I don't care about it though, and I sure am not going to spend $200 to go a game where these type of people are glorified. Nor am I going to help the owners get richer. My eleven year old grandson plays the game I grew up loving, not the MLB.

Finally... voices of reason in the form of The Common Man, Dave K, and a few others.

"Cheating" has been a part of baseball since its inception in the form of spitballs, sharpened cleats, corked bats, etc. In a way, such things are part of the lore of the game... you may do it... you may get away with it... but, if caught, you are suspended for some period of time (and branded, to some extent, as a cheat or a rogue). I put steroids in this category.

Gambling, though, would ruin The Game if players/managers were allowed to practice it. Fay Vincent said it best... "Pete Rose isn't the issue... Gambling is the issue." This is why getting caught gambling carries such a stiff penalty. Those who think that because Rose always bet his team to win clearly do not understand how detrimental his actions can be. Example #1... Pete the manager has a ton of $$$ on a game, and he makes decisions in that game that he might not otherwise make, such as bringing in a relief pitcher at a critical time. This decision could have an effect (presumably positive) on the game at hand... but, it could also have an effect on the NEXT game, as the relief pitcher might not be able to pitch the next day. Example #2... What about the days when Pete DOESN'T bet on his team to win? Don't you think the bookies will be aware of this?

One more thing... perhaps this is an urban legend, but I'll throw it out there for all to investigate. When Rose was convicted of tax evasion, he was sentenced to prison at the federal pookie in Marion, Illinois... the hometown of Ray Fosse. The baseball field on the prison grounds was named Ray Fosse Field. Karma...

Ya know how it's said there are signs on the clubhouse door reading "No Betting"? Well, it states a rule, but it doesn't say "or else you're outta here forever".

Wrong. That's exactly what that rule says.

Pete- THE ALL TIME HIT KING- , GIVE THEM HELL BABY, KEEP
SHOWING UP TO COOPERS TOWN, ALLSTAR WEEKEND AND THE
WORLD SERIES .......... Pete, u need to market yourself with
tees and hats that say WHO IS BASEBALLS ALL TIME HIT KING ???
I WILL GLADLY WEAR THEM...........

It is so FUNNY THE HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDES,,,,,,,,,,,,

One last comment. When they do finally elect someone to the HOF who is a known steroid user, that will be when the game truly dies.

I RECENTLY HEARD ON ESPN PART OF THE PROBLEM IS MANY PEOPLE
HOLD PETE ROSE RESPONSIBLE FOR BART GIAMATTIS DEATH,,,,,,,

SO FAR THAT HIS BEEN THE MOST HILARIOUS THING I HEARD BUT IT
AIN'T OVER YET.............

MUST MAKE YOU FEEL POWERFUL WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONES FAITH IN YOUR
HANDS.........

AND THIS IS NOT TO SAY HE WAS NOT WRONG, HE WAS BUT GOOD GRIEF
GET OVER IT

BUH BYE

Rose lied, agreed to the ban and then spent 20 years whining and crying. All of his whining and crying apologists be Damn. Don't do the crime if you're not man enough to serve the time. Rose is a crying, whining, girlie man.

Absolutely, without a doubt. Glad someone else sees it my way!!!

I'm a huge baseball fan and grew up only two hours from the HOF. But I've never been there and I will never go there. I have zero respect for the HOF for making this rule after the fact. Pete's infractions were as a manager, not a player...Pete Rose the player should be in the HOF. Hell, Pete Rose is the reason I'm a baseball fan to begin with. I first became interested in baseball when Rose was in the midst of his 44-game hitting streak. There's no telling, but if I hadn't started to follow that streak, would I be a fan today? Maybe...maybe not.

I also think guys who used PEDs prior to them being illegal should not be penalized.

I have some sympathy for Joe Jackson, but he did admit to knowing of the fix whether he participated or not.

Pete Rose is one of the Greatest Players in the history of MLB, the greatest that I have ever seen. I don't undersand the logic that betting on your team to win (while wrong) is worse that using steriods and truely compromising the integrity of the game and all of its records. Bud Selig is the one to be ashamed of himself for looking the other way in the Steroid era for 5 years and then claiming to 'clean up' the game. If I had a son that wanted to be a baseball player, I'd tell him to try to emulate Pete Rose and Henry Aaron and Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, not A-Rod and Barry Bonds. Pete, Henry, Willie and the Mick had pride, guts and class - not like the spoiled primadonnas of today....and while I am at it...why isn't Selig attempting to put pressure on the Players Union to have a salary cap before the small market teams go out of business...get tired of seeing the Yankees try to buy a championship wth players whose salaries practically equal that of some smaller market teams...give every team an equal opportunity!

Lanter, When did God die and put You in charge. I've seen all the Great Baseball players the last 50 years and day in and night out know one played the game with more love for the game than Pete Rose. What Pete did was not right and I'm not going to get into that, but what he did on the field will never be seen again. I can still see him running down to first base after drawing a walk or trying to beat out a infield hit or breaking up a double play. He played right Center left field and first second and third base with the same craft. Pete played hurt allot because the team needed him and put the team before himselve. I think My Grandfahter said it best to Me one afternoon when we were watching the Reds play the Dodgers, That Rose plays like Joe Jackson, played because he loves the game. Pete Rose is the Greatest of all the Baseball players ever and needs to be in the Hall of Fame with His Balls and Bats and records and the rest of the Great Ones.

Pete Rose took the lifetime ban to avoid having all the evidence against him made public. Then he lied and misrepresented the facts for years. The only way I'd lift the lifetime ban he's already under would be to have the full hearing, in public, with all the evidence presented to the Commission put back on the table so we can all see it.

Lifetime ban... Who's life time are you referring to?
How about a very simple solution. Let the lifetime be that of the player in question. If a player does something that provokes a lifetime ban, then ban the player from baseball, all of baseball, for the rest of his life. After the players passing, the Hall could then include the player in the next years voting. The player would get one year eligibility only. If the players accomplishments warranted inclusion in the Hall. So be it... but the player who violated the rules of the game will never know if he truly was ever elected and would never in his lifetime be able to call himself a Hall of Fame player. Shoeless Joe has served his time.... It's time to get Joe on the ballot. Pete can wait his turn.

I don't think a 20 year ban from the hall of fame is a particularly harsh punishment and should in no way be compared to a 20 year jail term.

I don't think a 20 year ban from the hall of fame is a particularly harsh punishment and should in no way be compared to a 20 year jail term.

Rose should be in the Hall. Just because he agreed to a life-time ban a couple decades ago doesn't mean saner minds can't prevail now. Put him in now. Not that MLB or the voting members of the Baseball Writers Association care what fans think.

I remember vividly an older gentleman showing me Pete Rose's WS rings in a bar in Fall River Massachusetts in 1995. Pete had a serious problem and if was desperate enough to give up those valuables to a bookie in southeastern ma then, I tend to believe that he compromised most anything andeverything. He did not hold anything sacred, he was a lousy husband,father and he had/has never shown any hit of morality or ethics. He was an amzing ballplayer but, he sold his soul.

It would be nice if we could work the term "lifetime ban" back out of the vocabulary of this debate. The ban, both in the language of the rule and in the sanctions Pete agreed to, is a "permanent" one. And I don't think baseball has any more compelling reason to celebrate Pete after he's dead than it does right now.

I BET ROSE WOULD GET YOU WITH A GOOD 1,2 PUNCH .........

CAN YOU HAIR YOURSELF HITTING THE CANVAS

CLINTON GOT A BLOW JOB, WHO DID THAT HURT ..........
PETE GAMBLED, WHO DID THAT HURT ......
THE IS BIGGER SHEET GOING ON ......

HEAR, SORRY

I HOPE I DON'T GET INTO AS MUCH TROUBLE AS PETE

TCM,
I appreciate your reasoned comments, the only thing that I'd like to clear up for people is that Pete agreed to an INDEFINITE suspension with the possibility for reinstatement, NOT a lifetime ban. I think that's a big difference, as far as understanding Pete's mindset when he was signing the agreement.

as a life long reds fan who lived and died with the reds since early 60's remember one thing. betting on baseball and betting on your own team IS a lifetime ban. lifetime is lifetime, Pete Rose knew what he was doing and his ego let him think he could get away with it, that he was special and one and only. well congratulations Mr Rose, u are one special person now, hows it feel?

I agree with you on the steroids, Ann. Ben Johnson's bust in 1988 was a sign to all the major US sports to get on board with the Olympic drug testing program. No one moved with the momentum from that outrage. And, in turn, they are now subjected to it.

The fact still remains tht Pete bet on baseball, which was a rule that he saw right in front of him every single day he walked into the clubhouse. And, in line with the point about penalizing retroactively, popping "greenies" to stay sharp.

The baseball writers seem intent on keeping McGwire, Sosa, Bonds et al. out of the HOF. So be it. Bonds went 400-400 before he got big, and likely would have achieved 500-500 if he hadn't. But it wasn't against the rules even IF he had tested positive. As for Rose, it remains to be seen if the writers would keep him out. But if betting on the games you are in isn't considered as damaging to the game as steroids...then it's not really a game, is it?

IF PETE DID SO BAD WHY DONT THEY TAKE AWAY THE RECORDS FROM SOSA ,A ROD SO ON AND SO ON THEIR MANY MORE

Lazo, learno how to use a computer, spell and make sense. Lifetime should be liftime. Pointing at Arod and Sosa doesn't excuse Pete. He was a singles hitter who was good at many poistions and great at none. Most overrated player in MLB history.

Lazo, learn how to use a computer, spell and make sense. Lifetime should be liftime. Pointing at Arod and Sosa doesn't excuse Pete. He was a singles hitter who was good at many positions and great at none. Most overrated player in MLB history.

The Elephant in the room is: Did he THROW games?
Our only evidence is that he accepted a lifetime ban and baseball quickly brushed everything under the rug. Since then it's been lie after lie after lie. If I had to bet on it I'd say he probably did. That's why baseball didn't want to go into a huge Pete Rose "trial." Everyone would come out a loser. So what's the verdict if you throw a game? No Hall for you. Unless the Fans don't even care about that anymore. Then I've got nothing except enjoy the WWF.

Let's not pretend the HOF is filled with saints.

Prior to 1920, dozens of major league baseball players were accepting money from gamblers. Generally speaking, gamblers would pay the best players to do poorly in a game that attracted heavy betting. There should be little doubt that many players with connections to gambling are in the HOF.

The Chicago team was an arch rival of Judge Landis's favorite team, and were positioned to dominate the next few years. Did this influence Landis's actions and approach?

As a fan, I want to see an honest game played by virtuous and unselfish players. And I would prefer the HOF be filled with players who possess those qualities.

Pete Rose gains more fame from not being in the HOF than he would get if he were in. Nevertheless, the fact that he cares so much about being in leads me to see him as selfish. The man lacks character. My preference as a fan would be to keep him out.

I have similar feelings about Frank Thomas as a player who was more concerned about racking up the counting statistics he thought would get him elected than helping his teams win championships. A great individual player in his prime but a terrible team player.

I'd rather see less gifted players who play with a lot more heart than selfish players who have all of the talent in the world and don't care about anyone else as long as they get theirs.

"Rule Five (5) of the entrance requirements that say voters shall consider a player's integrity, sportsmanship and character.

Integrity: Pete lied about gambling. Check

Sportsmanship: Pete admitted gambling on baseball. Check.

Character: Pete lied, gambled on baseball, hung out with a seedy and criminal crowd. Check...Check and Check.

Case closed."

Not as long as Cobb is still in the Hall. Virulent racist, paranoid, beat a man nearly to death with a phone, drank himself to death, didn't show up for his own induction because he didn't want to share the spotlight with Ruth.

Was also accused of gambling. Several times.

And "hanging out with a seedy crowd"? Girl, please. What is this, a social hygiene film? Some athletes are not good people. Duh. The Hall is for the best players and their historic achievements, not for scout badges. Get over it.

Pete Rose should NEVER be allowed in the Hall of Fame. Gambling almost destroyed the game and it could still destroy it. Bonds, Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, Palmeiro, Mark McGwire all belong in the Hall before Rose. Lifetime ban MEANS lifetime.

Was the HOF applying those same rules when Cobb was elected? If not, then your argument collapses.

"Best" is an arbitrary standard. Baseball is a competitive team sport where the players play to win and to win championships. Or at least they're supposed to. And the ones who are truly deserving of being called the "best" do.

Did Sosa help the Cubs with all of those solo home runs and 160 strikeouts a year? The at-bats where he would swing for the fences and strike out instead of hit a bloop single that would advance the runners? No. As entertaining as that may have been, it hurt the team and their chances to win championships. The meaningful historic achievement is winning. The players (and managers) who aren't playing to win, no matter what the reason, are doing a disservice to the game, their teammates, the fans, and everyone who trusts and believes in them.

Whatever Ty Cobb's off-the-field flaws may have been, are there any stories that he wasn't playing or managing to win, or that would even cast doubt?

The last time the Yankees won a World Championship, they had Paul O'Neill batting third, Scott Brosius playing third, and Tino Martinez at first. Not superstars, but champions. The hundreds of millions spent on superstars since then have gotten them what? A bunch of historic achievements that haven't brought victory to New York.

Let me put it to you this way BASEBALL.......I will boycott your so called Hall of Fame until you do the right thing and enshrine Charlie Hustle. Do the right thing! Just do it already.

Pete Rose never bet on his team to lose. First of all, you'd better believe that if he had, someone would have come forward with the evidence by now. They'd make a fortune, and it would be the biggest story in baseball since the Black Sox, since that would clearly mean Rose threw a game.

Secondly, any bookie who would take a bet from a baseball manager on that manager's own team to lose a game would be in serious need of a lobotomy.

Third, John Dowd may have been right about Rose betting on baseball, but the man clearly had it in for Rose personally. All he's ever brought forward on the subject is saying that Rose didn't bet on his team to win when a couple of washed-up pitchers were starting for him. But he didn't bet on them to lose, either.

Although Rose was a great hitter his stats are inflated by the fact that he hung around way too long after he started to decline. For instance, in 1980, six years before he retired, he played in every game and batted .282 with 1HR and 64 RBI. He was probably the worst regular player in baseball that year, and undoubtedly the worst offensive 1st baseman.

Rose broke the rules and bet on baseball. When questioned about it he lied instead of apologizing. He only admitted it years later to make a few bucks selling books.

He has no business being amongst the greats enshrined in the Hall.

Would be a no brainer except for the question of Rose ever betting against his team. For all the low life things that he has done I guarantee one of them that will never be proven is that he wagered on his team ever losing. To me that offsets the other traits, barely!

I agree with the comments concerning the selective memory of the writer and sardonic nature of this piece. Pete Rose may be a reprehensible human being, but he does deserve to be in the hall of fame. The comparison Mike Schmidt made between gambling and steroids is completely relevant because both are considered offenses by MLB (and by some state governments as well as the federal government in certain situations). Both should result in some sort of sanction. Quite frankly, if the punishment should fit the crime, players who test positive for illicit substances should be banned from baseball and prosecuted by the proper jurisdictional body. If they were prescribed steroids by a physician, the physician should be investigated as well. Just because they are athletes does not mean that they have some sort of natural immunity to legal action. Steroids are not a game. Gambling, on the other hand, is typically a less severe crime and carries a less severe sentence (relative to the possession and use of controlled substances). In certain states, it is legal. It should probably not result in a lifetime ban, but rather in the 50 game suspension and increasing disciplinary action plan that Manny benefitted from when using illegal drugs.

Oh...and the 1919 White Sox should be reinstated as well. At the very leasy Weaver and Jackson -- that's an utter travesty.

Craig,

I agree, his 20 yrs isn't long enough. I totally agree with it--30 or 40 yrs won't be long enough either, but remember this:

Michael Vick was gone for what, 2 yrs and it is okay for him to play?!?!?

At least what Rose did didn't harm a single soul ( even though he knew what he was doing was in fact, illegal. ) Same goes for Vick, he tortured dogs ( and who knows for how long! ) and gets a measely slap on the wrist and is suddently allowed to play?!

People say "well those were just dogs". Well I say, well what Rose did was just "on paper". I am totally against Rose being allowed to play again ( and btw, Mike Schmidt has and always will be, my favorite all-time player ) but by God, take Vick out with him!

I hate to wish harm to a single person, but I really hope some animal rights activist beats the crap out of Vick--because he really deserves for that to come to him, instead of trying to get everyone to feel sorry for him and how hard he had it in prison, blah blah blah. Well Boo-hoo!!

On the other hand, if they're going to let Vick play, then guess what, let Rose in the Hall of Fame!

for you people who want rose banned til he dies.god say if you don't forgive you will not be forgiven.there are no angels in the hall.womanizers, brawlers,drunks,cheats etc.

angels in the hall

are there angels in the hall
i bet there are very few
if looked at most ofthose would fall
those heroes which we knew

with women most of them has ran
most were drunks who drank
pitchers and hitters used what they can
there are no angels to be quite frank

some were always fighters
they never played for the game
they would drank and have one-nighters
no angels, oh what a shame

with no hit leader in the hall
steriod users, they make us frown
even crooked commissioners must fall
you may as well tear it down!

by george l dorman
txu1-010-094

an all star at four positions,hit leader.most are never a star at one.jealousy,yes.brash and cocky,yes,good no, great yes!fans loved or hated him.commissioners love him when he drew the big crowds when baseball was hurting.just as with mcgwire and sosa.they used these to get the money!now they are useless !good commissioners bull!selig owned a team and turned it over, ha to his daughter so he could play god!it should be to play a clown!
people you can't control how a pitcher throws in a game.you can somewhat control a hitter.by putting on the take sign,bunt sign,or steal sign.

steriods are much more serious.they destroy the body.that should be the lifetime ban!how many chances do they get?it's all about money.as far as who votes it should not be writers or former players,but the fans who pay the bills.writers who couldn't hit the waste basket,let alone a 100mph fastball!mad because they didn't get their interview or autograph.leave it to the fans!

i HAVE BEEN A DODGER FAN ALL MY LIFE. I HATED PETE ROSE. BUT ALL HIS TRANSGRESSIONS HAVE BEEN ADMITTED AFTER HIS PLAYING DAYS WERE OVER. IF YOU WANT TO BACK UP ON ME I WOULD'NT HAVE BEEN MARRIED 38 YEARS. WHAT WENT BEFORE IS BEFORE. IF YOU WON'T PUT HIM IN AS A PLAYER I WANT ALL THE OTHER TRANSGRESSORS, BIGOTS, ALCHOHOLICS, DRUG USERS, AND OTHERS OUT OF THE HALL OF FAME. IF NOT LET'S JUST BOYCOT THE WHOLE THING, LET IT GO BROKE AND START ANOTHER ONE.

Rose has more hits than ANYONE who EVER played the game. If that doesn't merit inclusion in the Hall of Fame, then the "never played the game" writers should rename it the Hall of Shame...

Pete Rose broke the rules and got caught. Rather than admit it and apologize he lied. He continued to lie for years. He only told the truth to make a few bucks by selling books. He gets no simpathy from me. He is an example of what an athlete should not be.

How about this? Who cares about the Hall of Fame?

At this point, it's just an exclusive country club voted on by grudge-carrying sportswriters and a Veteran's Committee made up of bitter old men like Bob Feller who refuse to vote in anybody who played before Dom Dimaggio.

Pete Rose started off as a carnival act, sprinting to first base on walks so everyone could see what a hustler he was. Once his playing days were over he was still a carnival act, and a gambling low life. So let him spend his twilight years hawking memorabilia outside the doors of Cooperstown on Hall of Fame weekend and let him tell anyone who will listen that he's been grievously wronged.

Membership in the Hall of Fame is about as significant as being a member of Augusta Country Club.

Rose is scum. His achievements says he gets into HOF. BUT he bet against the Reds as manager, I firmly believe, and that is inexcusable. Let him prove that he didn't and I can change my opinion. Rose lied for a number of years that he didn't bet on baseball, and there was no truth there.

Interesting that you don't see how the issue of Moral standards or the lack there of do not affect our kids. Well I beg to differ. Mr. Rose was a fine baseball player or one of the best. Based on his statistics Mr. Rose should be in the hall of fame.
As for steroids, it is a matter of individual choices. Which brings us to the importance of morality and the role it plays in the decisions we make? Thus I note: It is hypocritical to make a case for the lack of Principle and Morality while condoning Steroids,
Nevertheless, Pete Rose was neither a cleric, politician not even a public employee; he was simply one of the best darn baseball players we will ever experience and deserve the recognition even if he is not honored.

This argument is all twisted around by many. The question SHOULD NOT be whether or not Rose's ban is permanent. Of course it's permanent. He agreed to it.

The question should be is it not time to kick the other rule breakers/law breakers also out of baseball PERMANENTLY.

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